To Circumcise, or Not to Circumcise, That is the Question.
Published on October 20, 2009 by chloejo · 63 CommentsGrowing up in an Orthodox Jewish community in New York City, it is embedded into your genital thought process that boys have circumcised penises. Period. And every penis I’ve seen thus far (and the list is not extensive, hold your applause) has been “chopped.” Years ago while discussing having children, a friend turned me on to leading gender and sociology expert, Michael Kimmel’s seminal piece “The Kindest Uncut.” Talk about an “aha” moment. My world was rocked. A million questions popped up, including a deep guilt. Am I bad Jew for thinking this is something that needs to change? I had to remind myself of one of my favorite adages; “If you can’t change your mind, are you sure you have one?”
Here are the philosophical questions that came up for me that day, and never left;
- Why is male circumcision any better than female circumcision? We call that barbaric, and yet, here we are cutting off our boys foreskins, unnecessarily. In fact, The MGMBill.org, is attempting to get a bill passed in Congress to make male genital circumcision a crime (as currently are “mutilation acts” – ie circumcision on females.) The proposed congressional bill which the group hopes will become law can be viewed here.
- If I don’t follow every rule of the bible, (pre-marital sex, anyone?) then why on earth would this one silly, painful rule linger? How about; Deuteronomy 25:11-12; “If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.” Is this really a book I should be taking verbatim?
- My child is going to have my (and my Jewish partner’s) nose, will anyone really need to unbutton his pants to guess his ethnicity? I jest. However it’s worth mentioning that Theodore Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, refused to allow his own son to be circumcised. Ethnic or religious pride and comfort comes from within, not via a scissor.
- Isn’t my hypothetical baby’s little penis absolutely lovely and perfect as is? Why would a penis be born with a foreskin that is unnecessary? Is our clit hood unnecessary? I began to research the amount of feeling boys lose in those few inches of skin. Dr. Christina Northrop, An Internationally respected obstetrician/ gynecologist, says; “The primary pleasure zones of the natural (uncircumcised) penis are located in the upper penis, which includes the penis head, the foreskin’s inner lining, and thefrenulum –the hinge of skin that connects the foreskin to the head of the penis. When a male is circumcised, some of the most erotically sensitive areas of the penis are removed: the foreskin that normally covers the head of the penis (the glans) and some or all of thefrenulum. The frenulum contains high concentrations of nerve endings that are sensitive to fine touch. The glans was designed by nature to be covered all the time except during sexual activity. Upon erection, both foreskin layers unfold onto the upper penile shaft, leaving the highly innervatedfrenulum , glans, and inner lining exposed and readied for sexual activity. This is one of reasons why the penile tip is the focus of sexual excitement.” Once again, why would I take away the sensitive and wonderful nerve endings of my child’s penis? Anyone?
- As per Kimmel; “male circumcision is the most common surgical procedure in the United States and medical insurance carriers routinely cover hospital circumcision (which raises the incentives of medical practitioners to advocate the procedure).” Is this not another case of big Med pushing for more procedures to make more moolah?
- Any chick (or fellow) who’d judge my child on his foreskin being intact or not, is not someone I’d want my kid to partner with anyway, and wouldn’t be welcome at my table. Don’t you love old school Grandma expressions like that? “Not welcome at my table.”
- The American Academy of Pediatrics’ disapproves of this procedure, and basically likens it to a cosmetic procedure. 8 days old is too young for plastic surgery. And where is the kids voice in all this? How do we know he wants his penis skin lopped off?
- Noharmm.org states; “The foreskin contains several feet of blood vessels, including the frenular artery and branches of the dorsal artery. The loss of this rich vascularization interrupts normal blood flow to the shaft and glans of the penis, damaging the natural function of the penis and altering its development… All of the human mucosa (the linings of the mouth, eyelids, vagina, foreskin and anus) are the body’s first line of defense against disease. This benefit of the foreskin could be one possible explanation why intact men are at lower risk of chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases.”
- If you live a life of ahimsa, a commitment to non-violence to animals, humans, and the environment – how does electively hurting your child fit in to that doctrine?
My Partner is concerned that our (hypothetical/ unborn/ perhaps not even a boy) child may suffer psychological distress by looking different from his Pops. Kimmel’s take; “That our son would look different from his father was easily negotiated. We decided that we will simply tell him that Daddy had no choice about his own body and especially his penis, but that now, as parents, we loved him so much that we decided we didn’t want to hurt him like that–turning something that could be a cause of embarrassment into a source of pride.” I’ve never been too concerned with what others think. Why should we be? Should we not just do what seems right to us, ethically?
Many Doctor’s (see video below) – including the legendary Dr. Spock weighed in on the issue. As per “The Kindest Uncut”;
Even the redoubtable Benjamin Spock changed his mind over the years. Having always stood for the conventional wisdom that parents know best, Spock told Redbook in an interview in 1989 that his preference “if I had the good fortune to have another son, would be to leave his little penis alone.” In a pamphlet, “Circumcision: A Medical or Human Rights Issue?” one doctor went so far as to suggest that removing the foreskin for strictly hygienic purposes was analogous to removing the eyelid for a cleaner eyeball.
Below, ParentsAsk.com experts, Scott Cohen, MD, Cara Natterson, MD and Bob Sears, MD weigh the pros and cons of circumcising a baby boy and offer differing opinions;
Circumcision Indecision: Making the best choice for your son
I recently sat front row at a family member’s childs circumsion. We were all sitting in a room, watching some guy hold down a perfect newborn boy and slice off the top of his penis. I couldn’t believe how strong my reaction was, I literally wanted to grab the child and RUN. It felt incredibly barbaric and entirely wrong to my sense of scruples. I’m pretty sure I want to leave my potential future little man’s pee-pee alone, I dig some tradition, but I don’t live by it. I’m a modern, thinking woman, and I’m guessing most modern, thinking women would seriously consider elective surgery on a newborn (really researching the pros and cons) before blindly following the pack… or at least I’d hope so.
Do you have strong opinion on circumcision? I’d love to hear it! Please leave your input in the comments section below.
Tags: Choosing Circumcision, Circumcision Indecision: Making the best choice for you, Michael Kimmel, The Kindest Uncut, uncircumsized penis, Uncut penis, vegan and circumsized
Readers Comments (63)
Excellent blog so insightful. I know many people who will find this helpful.
LOVE THIS! You’re right, right right. We endlessly debated this during my pregnancies — husband wanted sons to “look like him.” (I read a study that said “looking like Dad” was the second-most-often cited reason for circumcision.) We ended up having our first circumcised after hearing an AWFUL story from a grown-up friend about what it was like to have the procedure done as an adult (for a bona fide medical reason). I theorized that I’d rather do it to my infant than have him be able to remember it as an adult (though needing to have a circumcision is, admittedly, quite rare). For the record, the procedure (in a hospital) was quick, involved pain meds, and the baby barely cried. *I* cried; he really did not.
Then I got preg with son #2 and ended up having him circumcised too b/c I thought it might be weird to have two boys who didn’t look like each other. In hindsight, TOTALLY STUPID. I wish I’d stood my ground, both times, and refused. Instead, I deferred to my husband’s preferences (not my usual style, BTW) and was very much influenced by the horror of my friend’s adult experience.
It might be comforting for your readers to know that, particularly in big cities, the procedure is less common than it used to be.
One more thing to add: I have several Jewish friends — one with THREE boys — who have chosen NOT to circumcise their sons and instead have had alternative ceremonies in place of the traditional bris.
I saw an amazing documentary at the Tribeca Film Festival this year about a family asking themselves the same question. It’s called “Partly Private.” The mother in the family was the film maker and she researched and interviewed and traveled all over to try to get to the bottom of this issue. It was really interesting and also pretty funny and eye opening.
http://www.tribecafilm.com/filmguide/Partly_Private.html?c=y&page=2&&sortBy=title&curView=browseDetail&searchStartDate=10-20-2009&3311=171636&pageSize=15
Elaine, thank you for that excellent commentary! I have heard so many points of view on this topic, and I think ultimately, most women kowtow to their men… which seems so nutty to me. I mean, I know he has the penis, but WE carry the kid for 9 Months and WE feed them from our boobs. Should we not be the one to (mainly) make the decision?
Jo
My thoughts exactly, saucha cleanliness, ahimsa Non violence. I feel often its strictly still adhered to to generate $$$, no harm my babies arm:-)
Having just had a girl. if it had been a boy I wouldn’t have done it. Even when I am. I think leaving the body in it’s natural state is what the creator wanted to begin with. Kind of like being vegan is.
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[...] ***The GirlieGirl Army*** » Blog Archive » To Circumcise, or Not to Circumcise, That is the Questi… girliegirlarmy.com/blog/20091020/to-circumcise-or-not-to-circumcise-that-is-the-question – view page – cached Growing up in an Orthodox Jewish community in New York City, it is embedded into your genital thought process that boys have circumcised penises. — From the page [...]
I had a colleague who had his foreskin reconstructed/restored and said it was a very painful procedure but completely worth it.
Whenever people say “Oh he won’t look like other boys” I always wonder how close they think men look at one another weiners. Or that “girls won’t like it” – there is so little difference between cut and uncut (especially if you’re erect), it would be a really odd woman who would pass up a chance to be with an amazing guy for that extra half-inch of skin.
I’m solidly on the anti-circumcision side, but interestingly enough have always had my male partners say they would circumcize (for the reasons above), which seems crazy to me. Why inflict un-necessary pain on your child?
We decided against circumcision when our son was born because he was born perfect and circumcision is an option and unnecessary. Also, through research and talking with other mothers we found that circumcision is becoming a thing of the past.
I saw an amazing documentary at the Tribeca Film Festival this year about a family asking themselves the same question. It’s called “Partly Private.” The mother in the family was the film maker and she researched and interviewed and traveled all over to try to get to the bottom of this issue. It was really interesting and eye opening (especially as someone who is not Jewish). She treated what can be a sensitive and personal subject with heart and even humor. :)
Prior to having my son we decided to have him circumsized. Unfortunately, the hospital I delivered him could not perform the procedure. However, we still want to have him circumsized for a number of reason and yes the main reason is his dad is circumsized as well. Plus, I’ve seen many penises (sorry Chloe) and I definitely have a preference.
Having little brothers I know that yes boys, especially when they are going through puberty, look at other boys penises. Mainly for comparison.
I have scheduled an appointment for the next few weeks but am extremely nervous about getting it done. Hopefully nothing goes wrong and he will not be in too much pain.
I am neither for or against circumsion, like many things, it is a personal choice. But its a choice I am making for my son. He’ll forgive me later.
:)
Melody
Very thorough research. I was circumcised at birth and wish my parents had let me keep all my bits. After all, it is my body.
Many men are finding out that they miss their foreskin. They, like me, are restoring their foreskin to regain what was taken from us at birth. See http://www.RestoringForeskin.org and http://www.foreskin-restoration.net/forum to read stories of men who wish they had never been circumcised and are doing something about it. Also, many of those men are very upset with their parents for having them circumcised. This is particularly true of the younger men, who can easily research circumcision on the Internet and wonder why their parents ignored the evidence available to them.
Dear Girlygirl Army,
You seem to really understand that circumcision is painful and unnecessary and that more and more parents are leaving their sons intact.
However, your video is terrible. These doctors are in no way representative of current medical info, and they completely ignore the human rights angle. The penis does not belong to the doctor or the parents- it belongs to the boy. Many doctors are now agreeing that HE is the only one who is entitled to make decisions about it.
doctorsopposingcircumcision.org
Please watch this quick video from Dr. Dean Edell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHVvB1oHAgg
And here are a few more to supplement:
“Facing Circumcision: Eight Physicians Tell Their Stories”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CC9Y-Us210
Doctors Opposing Circumcision (channel)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonobo3D#p/c/BC354EC34E141BD3/2/XWq5PQsNhRw
Also, I highly recommend Penn and Teller’s Bullshit: Circumcision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIZLna_uzLQ
While previous research has shown that male circumcision can help protect against human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) by up to 60%, a new study reported in the New England Journal of Medicine indicates that it also offers protection from genital herpes and human pampillomavirus (HPV) infections. These three are the most common sexually transmitted diseases and are all incurable. Despite the protection provided by the circumcision, the researchers still say it is not a full shield, so other precautions should still be taken to prevent infection.
Herpes ulcers make men more susceptible to HIV infection, so even the partial protection provided by circumcision could provide a cascading benefit. Four out of five people infected with HIV are also infected with genital herpes. Also, by preventing HPV infections in men, this would benefit female sexual partners since HPV can cause cervical cancer in women.
In the 2 year study, circumcised volunteers were 25% less likely to have genital herpes and 33% less likely to carry a type of HPV that causes cervical cancer than their counterparts who were not circumcised.
if i had a male child, i would never, ever circumcise him. i find the practice barbaric and a socially sanctioned form of genital mutilation. i have heard many men say they would circumcise their child so that they (the child) wouldn’t feel weird because their penis didn’t look like their dad’s or like the majority of other penises the child may encounter in the locker room or elsewhere. i feel like if the child grows up and exercises his agency and chooses to lop the foreskin off, then go for it.
it is not ok on any level to surgically alter someone who can’t speak for themselves yet. it’s like with kids born intersex or with so-called ambiguous genitals–no one has the right to alter those kids’ bodies without their consent.
that hearkens back to the original argument i’ve heard men use as support for circumcision that i referenced–yet that surgery has created a penile aesthetic, if you will, that is just that: created and constructed, which has now created an inaccurate representation of what a so-called “normal” penis looks like. avoiding circumcision would be one way to counter these accepted notions of “normal” when variation is what is actually normal. oh, and give those with penises lots of sensation back.
as for the arguments about cleanliness, it’s called soap and water. i think it’s as simple as that.
great post cj! xo
Melody:
How in the world do you know your son will forgive you later? Wanna bet?
First of all, I think you really need to educate yourself more on circumcision- firstly how to spell it.
Second, “looking like dad” is NOT a reason to perform non-therapeutic surgery on your baby. This is not about the child, I can pretty much guarantee that your son will not give a rat’s ass about what his dad’s penis looks like. This is about Dad, not Son, needing to feel like his penis is okay and not wanting it to look different. Don’t feel bad, though, it’s very common. Common enough that Penn from Penn and Teller made a hillarious video about it
“Penn Says: Matching Penises?!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRFNciRUAk
You’re nervous for a reason, dear! You’re about to have a painful, traumatic, and unnecessary operation performed on your son’s penis! Things can and do go wrong all the time and complications are way underreported. All you have to do is ask around to find someone who had to have their son’s circumcision “re-done”. Seriously, just ask around.
Even with anesthesia, your son WILL be in pain. All those “he slept through it” stories? That’s a state of neurogenic shock that Dr. Mark Reiss covers in Penn and Teller’s Bullshit: Circumcision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIZLna_uzLQ
And not only will he be in pain during the procedure, but for the entire time it’s healing every time he pees or poops in his diaper. Think about it- that’s a raw open wound.
This is not your choice, nor is it your husband’s choice. If your son’s penis is healthy as it is, it is HIS choice that he will more than likely be thankful to you for preserving. If he doesn’t like his foreskin later, he can always change it, but if you cut it off now, you are taking that choice away.
Please, just educate yourself on this a little bit more. Not for me, for your son.
I have heard of studies that show circumsized men are less likely to get STDs, and ones that get STDs are less likely to transfer them to a partner.
If I was actually pregnant I’d probably do a lot more research to find out what the benefits really are! It definitely doesn’t make sense (in my mind) to do it just so the boy will “fit in.”
This is such an interesting topic. My boyfriend and I have talked about it a lot, and we are both thinking against circumcision. It just doesn’t seem right, I mean we are born one way for a reason…
Being equipped with the aforementioned tool and having seen. . .well, we won’t get into how many I’ve seen. . .anyway, I’m always a bit distraught that people exhibit such a strong preference one way or the other.
95% of the time (probably much, much more), the cut guy didn’t decide to get chopped, and then those adults who consider having it done out of vanity (I’m not knocking vanity) often don’t have the down-time to do it later in life. Thus, most guys don’t really have much of a choice in what’s dangling between their legs.
I had a paring knife taken to my cucumber when I was an infant, but I don’t fret over being sans peel. I don’t really care. And, I don’t see why people have a preference over one or the other (usually a preference for cut over uncut, but then again, I know some people who strongly prefer uncut). For intelligent adults (especially those claiming to be compassionate) to have such strong preferences–preferences in their “taste” in adult penises (sorry) and then force that preference on an infant–is a bit disturbing to me, too.
If I had to make the decision for a new being, I wouldn’t have it done to him.
And, in terms of adults even having preferences (I mean in their partners), I find it as annyoning and sad when someone tells me they prefer one (cut or uncut) over the other as when I hear someone say they prefer one race over the other.
ANOTHER EXCELLENT GIRLIE GIRL PIECE!!!!!!
I will never forget the one and only briss I attended. The tension and anxiety in the room was palpable. My friends and I were all huddled as far away from the baby as we could get, crying, shaking, and sweating. I wanted to yell out, “Stop! Can’t you feel how wrong this?”
It is the parents’ job to protect their children from harm, not subject them to cosmetic surgery in the name of vanity or “tradition.”
If I’m being honest, yes, aesthetically I prefer a circumcised penis. But I could certainly fall in love with a man who wasn’t circumcised, along with his penis.
Instead of worrying how boys will feel growing up looking different, and chopping their foreskins off to combat this, let’s keep their penises intact and just teach them to be kind and self-loving.
While we are asking the question, “Will my child suffer psychological distress by looking different from his Father?” (About a penis that isn’t even in plain view all of the time anyway). Then we must be sure to ask the same question about more obvious and visible characteristics like hair color, eye color, face shape, height, body type? Does it not seem unnecessary and somewhat silly when we ask the question that way?
Cleanliness isn’t even a good argument for today’s living standards. Thousands of years ago when civilizations didn’t have running water and soap it may have made some sort of sense to cut off the skin. But today? If we can teach little girls how to care for their vagina’s we can also teach little boys proper hygiene for their perfect uncircumcised penises.
If we were meant to be without clitoris hoods and foreskin, The Universe/God/The Creator would have created us without them. We are perfect the way we are born. We must stop mutilating our baby boys! Just because cutting is a common practice, does NOT make it right!
Etirsa – I could NOT agree more! What about families with mixed race children, or adopted children? My Husband and I plan on adopting our second child… will he feel “different” because his Father may not be the same color or shade as him? Maybe. Will he be loved and savored and taken care of amazingly? Hell yea. What is really the issue here? Ego. The “look like me” argument reeks of ego. Jessica – the studies I’ve read have been done in 3rd world countries where cleanliness is overall compromised via lack of basic hygiene. I’m looking forward to more, modern US studies.
First, thank you for this piece Chloe, it’s so important to have this conversation. Circumcision is mutilation, plain and simple. I only watched one bris. I was 13 and curious what was gonna happen, so I stood front row. It was horrifying. The baby screamed and was bleeding profusely. And for what?? Tradition?? Vanity?? Come on. It’s time for men to take their foreskins back!! This is an antiquated, cruel, and unnecessary practice that should not be performed unless medically necessary.
I would NEVER circumcise ANY child male OR female. It’s a human rights issue and a COMPLETE violation of those rights to make that decision for a child. Not to mention it is EXTREMELY painful (since when do babies not feel?). My son isn’t circumcised. It was a total non issue between my husband (who IS circumcised btw). If and when our boy comes of age and he decides he wants to be a circumcised male, we will fully support that decision.
What a great article!
As a circumcised man, I have to say that I wish it was not done to me. We don’t chop off eyelids for fear that we can’t clean under them. We don’t chop off lips to keep the mouth sanitary. Chopping off the penis all together would prevent lots of STDs also, but we don’t do that either.
This is a religious tradition that advocates have found certain “advantages” to and use those to rationalize it for their own selfish reasons. Is the social risk that huge of being caught in the locker room or not looking exactly like dad? I’d say they are far more pressing social problems in boys locker rooms and far more variables for not looking exactly like dad.
Don’t do it. We evolved with it for a reason. Mother nature wants us to have it, that’s why every single boy is born with it.
I only have a girl, but had she been a boy, we would not have had [him] circumcised. A man who wants the procedure can do it fairly easily under anesthesia. Why make this choice for a baby?
I’m not into making choices for my kids that can’t be taken back–I’m totally with Victoria. I think it’s unfair and it’s gross. You want someone to hold down your infant and CUT him!? Are you crazy? The same kid you’ll rush to pick up and cover in kisses when he scrapes his knee at the park and gets a booboo? Hell, for that, let him cry without any comfort for anything! If he can suck up having a piece of his penis chopped off, then why is a minor scratch so important?!
There will be no cutting of foreskin in this house, and I am happy to be with a (secure) intact and sexually aware man who wouldn’t want his son subjected to such an unnecessary procedure. After all, if EVERY male of the species is born with one, then it must be the way things are SUPPOSED to be outfitted, no?
Besides, this is NY. Turtlenecks are always in!
I also just wanted to say how brave you are for questioning a long held tradition in the Jewish community. Rest assured, however, that you are NOT alone. There has actually always been opposition to circumcision-even from within Judaism.
Here are some links you might find helpful or encouraging
jewsagainstcircumcision.org
jewishcircumcision.org
“Cut: Slicing Through the Myths of Circumcision”
by Eliyahu Ungar-Sargon (also an Orthodox Jew)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx89xECfHG4
“Cutting With Tradition: Jewish Circumcision”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAAhU5_xO8A
In their own words: two Jewish mothers discuss circumcision
Miriam Pollock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfnqN3YgTd8
Laurie Evans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3ZHwpL-E0
Two Jewish young men at the US Capitol protesting circumcision
Jason Siegal and Zachari Levi Balakoff
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bonobo3D#p/u/26/LvnEU1CnXLs
Having my foreskin intact, I can tell you all that it is indeed the most sensitive part of my Penis, and I am quite thankful for it’s presence.
Don’t circumcise your Babies…
When my son was born a little more than 17 years ago we chose not to have him circumcised. It seemed like the right decision at the time and there haven’t been any personal repercussions for him that I am aware of.
I didn’t realize that people did this so their son’s penis would look like their dad’s. How many opportunities do children have to examine and make such comparisons? What satisfaction can a father derive from knowing he and his grown son have penises that are “twins”? By this logic I had better take my daughter in for breast implants so we will have the same bra size.
A reader just forwarded this article to me: http://nymag.com/health/features/60158/: For and Against Foreskin:A comprehensive investigation into the pros, cons, and controversies of circumcision. Good to read in addition to this blog.
I believe circumcision is barbaric and out dated! On a physical and spiritual level this is HIGHLY traumatic for a baby to endure! They enter the world and we as a culture immediately send the message that their penis is bad & wrong. The message we should be sending is that this is a SACRED organ!
I know friends who speak about how they are numb on the tip of their penis because of circumcision… my uncircumcised friends have a much different experience sexually. The foreskin is there for a reason. GOD is the creator… do you REALLY think he/she made a mistake?? The foreskin has a purpose… if a man takes pride in his penis and recognizes this sacred organ he will clean it appropriately and be FREE of any and ALL dis-ease!
So in short… KEEP the foreskin, love your son, and allow him to love his penis!
THe pleasure one gets from these parts is so significant. For this reason, the let the Dad decide is an outrageous idea, where the dad is cut. Would yopu not think it wrong for a man that is color blind to have a say as to turning off color sight in a child? The let Dad decide or make them look like dad is part of the pro circers grasping for a way to keep this heinous practice going. The foreskin parts feel so good. The contirved health benefits (even if they were real) in no way justify cutting off eroigenous tissue of another human being.
The urinary tract infection issue is BS. Boys cut in the US have a higher chance of getting MRSA infections from circumcision than any boy has of getting a UTI. UTIs are also higher in the US than in natural EU. The reason is that US Drs try to pull back the foreskin and that leads to infection. My kids pediatrician did that in the 90s and I wanted to kill her. She had no knowledge about the natural male body and said it should be pulled back and cleaned with soap (that exactly leads to infection). The Africa HIV study showed that the circumcised men are MORE likely to pass on HIV to women (look that up). The alleged change of risk of cut men getting HIV in Africa is 1.7% risk change. Wear a condom that makes the risk very close to zero. In the US the HIV risk change has not been observed and there are many issues abbout thoe “studies” including the cut wearing condoms and not having sex while healing. The big New Zealand study found no difference as to STIs and the US study found that only number of sexual partners was associated with HPV and NOT circ status. The cut pass on HPV and cause cervical cancer in women at the same rate as the natural. It all depends of number of sexual partners. There is also now evidence that cut pass herpes (via circ scar) at greater rate, particularly through oral sex. If a woman thinks the guy should wear a condom for intercourse, they should also think the same way for a BJ.
To the author of the blog:
I think the reason you have no problem diregarding other (silly, outdated) parts of the Bible but feel weird about circumcision is that your family and peer groups probably keep one tradition alive and ignore the other. Thus, one is just some print in a book and the other is part of your heritage/childhood/relationships. A stronger hold than just words on paper.
Being afraid to question a habit and mindlessly following tradition is a hallmark of religion.
I’m not being facetious but why is “looking like Dad” even on the table? How often do fathers and sons compare their anatomy?
My apologies for pulling a Kayne West, but as long as we talking about having kids:
From:
According to the United Nations, the global population could be as high as 11 billion in 2050 or as low as 8 billion, if the right programs are put in place now.
If you have to have biological children please limit your family size to two kids. The overcrowded, polluted and impoverished world you help prevent will be the one you save your descendants from living in.
The solution is easy.
Don’t circumscribe. The kid can always have the surgery when he is an adult if wants his penis that way.
Interestingly, I think circumcisions may have a lot in common with cigarettes and religion. If a person doesn’t get it while he is young he is much less likely to choose it for himself as a adult.
@Charles, thank you for the informed and reasoned counterpoint. Usually when I see these debates on the web the “other side” is usually a bunch of hysterical traditionalists.
As another counterpoint, the diseases you mentioned can be avoided with behavioral changes resulting from good education and a good upbringing.
I’m not trying to start shit, but who are you to tell anyone how many kids they should have? If I want 2 kids, I’ll have 2 but if I was 8 or more, I’ll have 8 or more…
I’m so tired of people in general telling others how they should live their life as if they are some all powerful God or something.
I thought I wasn’t going to comment anymore on this topic, but after reading through all the responses, I have two more things to say. :)
1) Like SO MANY parenting issues, this is unnecessarily polarized. There are decent arguments both for and against circumcision and while I (as I said above) now wish I had not circumcised my sons, I don’t criticize people for making either decision. This brings me to:
2) Parents who circumcise their boys do not love them less than parents who don’t. It’s a personal choice, influenced by many competing loyalties (including but not limited to views of “normal,” religion, tradition, aesthetics, sexuality, and possible health concerns). It is not always so clear-cut, when making parenting (or other) choices, which of these concerns to make as primary.
Ironically, I find that it is often those who HAVEN’T had children who think that parenting choices are so clear-cut. News: They are not.
Elaine: I agree entirely – it is NEVER clear cut and there are a hundred ways to look at this. For me, personally (and obviously I can only speak for myself!!) learning about circumcision as something that isn’t totally necessary and perfunctory is a new thing, so all these facts are totally exciting and interesting to me, since we’ve all heard the arguments FOR circumcision our entire lives. I’m the kinda gal who likes to hear ALL sides of every argument. In the research I’ve now done, I’ve decided that I do not want to circumcise my (hypothetical) baby. BUT I have a Partner who may want to. That said, this is a family decision, and nothing is simple when it comes to family decisions!
Amazing topic, amazing points, amazingly educational. I’m forwarding this to my BFF who says, “I prefer uncut because it looks prettier”. WTH?
She had her son’s skin removed because of this ideal. I strongly objected but my idea of “your son is perfect now, why mess with him.” was ignored.
When and if I have a male child, you can be sure he’ll remain perfectly WHOLE until he chooses otherwise.
@Lisa
I’m a citizen of this planet and I have right to voice my concern about it and our race’s future. Sometimes other people’s habits effect people and things beyond their own lives. How many children people choose to have is one of them.
I disagree with the “no one right answer” sentiment.
I know from watching my own reactions that it is one thing to come to something new on your own power at your pace.
It is quite another thing to have something completely new dropped into your mental universe without notice.
People aren’t computers. You can’t always input new facts and get an instant change.
I grew up thinking mom, apple pie, chevrolet and circumcision myself. The first few times I came across this issue on the internet I found the ideas disconcerting.
Having said that, facts are facts.
Men are born with foreskins. They have a bodily function. Increased sexual pleasure. A parent having it removed will deprive their child of that pleasure. There may have been a practical reason for it 5000 years ago, but the year is 2010.
@beforewisdom “If you have to have biological children please limit your family size to two kids…”
Wow, great idea! All I have to do is eliminate two of my four children.
@B:
I though it was clear from my message that I meant birth control.
You can choose to be sarcastic or you can choose to contribute to giving your descendants a better world to live in by educating them about population issues.
I went to a baby bathing class with my best friend and her new baby in the hospital when I was 18. The teacher was bathing a newborn baby boy as demonstration…he had just recently been circumcised. I could describe it as nothing less than mutilation. I decided right then and there that if I ever had a baby boy I would leave his penis just as nature had made it. I still do not have that baby boy, but I do have a fiance who is uncut. His penis is beautiful and gives me more pleasure than any un-natural and mutilated penis ever has. I really see the whole circumcision procedure as an out-dated, barbaric, cosmetic and totally unnecessary tradition.
Love this article!
Love it Chloe Joe! I have a soon-to-be 12 year old son who was not circumcised. When that little feller was growing inside me, I could feel him, felt everything he felt, and I knew I could cause him no pain. After doing the research, I realized that there is absolutely NO reason to circumcise other than, maybe, his father was circumcised (poor thing) and he might want to look like his dad, or his friends might all be circumcised and he might feel different… I didn’t choose to be vegan and raise my son that way because everyone else was doing it, so why would I base a decision that important on what other people are doing? It is mutilation, plain and simple, and I would never mutilate my son. Why do humans always want to “improve” on nature? Leave that penis alone!
What a thoughtful and well-written article! I also have to point out that the major medical study that ended up advocating circumcision as a way to prevent the spread of HIV was conducted in communities with uncircumcised adult males in ARFICA in the 80′s. (Also without taking the usage of condoms into account.) This has provided the basis for the Western medical community’s advocacy of circumcision as a way to prevent disease (namely, AIDS). I can’t even begin to discuss how far-fetched it is to apply the results of that study to males growing up in the United States!
We did not circumcise our son for many reasons…one is that my husband is Japanese and in Japan male circumcision is almost unheard of! It’s EXTREMELY unusual and the culture views it as barbaric, unnecessary mutilation.
Right on!
Genital mutilation is a crime. Its butchery and female or male, we should not stand for circumcision and child abuse.
For Jewish people doubting circumcision, here are contact details for Celebrants of Brit Shalom (Brit B’li Milah – covenant without cutting): http://shalom.notlong.com
For people who think he should look like his father: http://www.circumstitions.com/Images/looklike.gif
Those who think this is an important decision parents have to make should know that it’s a peculiarly American decision. Outside the Muslim world, the Philippines, South Korea, tribal Africa, Israel and Eastern Polynesia, it’s not offered. In Europe, Scandinavia, South and Central America and most of Asia, it never has been. The rest of the English-speaking world tried it, found it did no good, and gave it up – and there hasn’t been an epidemic of foreskin-related complaints since.
For intact boys with circumcised peers: http://www.circumstitions.com/Different.html
For intact teens: http://www.circumstitions.com/Teen.html
For a general overview, from the point of view that a foreskin is normal: http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html (also downloadable as a leaflet: http://www.circumstitions.com/Docs/itsaboy.pdf)
I have VERY strong feelings about circumsion on boys and girls. I don’t believe in either. Our bodies are our temples,created perfectly by our creator and need no altering imo for any reason! I could go on n on,but believe the bottom line is why make someone suffer because of stupid human attitudes to change something that was born perfect whole and complete? No way no how! I met Marilyn Milos of NOCIRC back in the 80′s at Rainbows End Farm in CA. she taught about not circumcising and why,as a nurse she had lots of experience. Been anti circ. since I was 18,and I’ll raise my daughter anti circ. to. Teach her the truth. I think it’s a sicko thing and no argument for it or female circ./mutilation will EVER change my mind! Why don’t you believers in circ. on boys and girls go have your female parts circ. and tell me how into doing it to doing it to your boys or girls you are afterwards?
I knew an african tribe princess named YahYah and she can never enjoy sex,and if she ever had children she would suffer so badly during labor because she was circumsized. EVIL!
A great blog. And, reading the comments makes me feel good. So many people realizing just how wrong routine infant circumcision is. Very refreshing. I wish my parents were enlightened as some of the above commenters. I would not have to be restoring my foreskin if they had not made the choice for me.
Amazing piece by Jack Black on circumcision:
http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/11/jack-black-on-circumcision.html
I just found this article which is pretty spectacular as well: http://www.mothering.com/health/the-case-against-circumcision
[...] Preggy Ladies: How To Usher In The Soul Of A Saint With Your Baby The Big Secret: Downlow and Pregs To Circumcise, or Not to Circumcise, That is the Question. Vegan Since Birth Truths For The Knocked Up And Misinformed Knocked up and [...]
Well-done. You would be a hypocrite of the highest order if you were a pro-circumcision vegan. There are 30k nerve endings in the foreskin. Protect your child’s future sexuality by leaving the foreskin alone. And remember to NEVER retract the foreskin; there’s a connective membrane that’s meant to dissolve only when your son is a teenager – the membrane protects the glans from dirt, poop, pee, and other soiling agents as a baby and child. Don’t let any doctor retract his foreskin, either! Not for cleaning, or for ANY other reason. Remember: only clean what can be seen (wash only the visible portion of the penis, and don’t retract anything). There is a non-cutting religious covenant that Jewish folks can make, if this is important to you, I suggest looking into it as a meaningful rite of passage that is cruelty-free. And finally, have you ever spent ANY amount of your life comparing your vulva to your mother’s vulva? Is this not the epitome of Things That Are Just Not Likely To Come Up? So is the whole “my son’s penis will not look like his father’s penis” thing. There are so many reasons why this is just not going to come up, because who sits around comparing penises with their father?? If this level of intergenerational penis-scrutiny is going on in your home, you’ve got much bigger problems in your family than not knowing how to explain the importance of foreskin.
I see that one can grow up Orthodox in the City and still feel deeply uncomfortable with bris. I suspect that quite a few Jewish mothers found bris disturbing but only in the past 20 odd years have they had the self-confidence required to speak up. To all you Jewish women out there, I strongly recommend the writings and YouTube videos of Miriam Pollack and Laurie Evans, two angry and tough Jewish Mamas. The is also the scholarly book by Leonard Glick. A relatively hostile review of that book, in Tikkun I think, conceded that “we Jews are going to have to face the fact that circumcision reduces a man’s sensitivity and pleasure.” We have to conclude that from the recent discovery that the foreskin and frenulum have extremely rich nervous systems.
The jury is still out on an even more explosive question, namely whether bris damages the pleasure a woman can derive from intercourse. I doubt we can say that all women find intact more pleasurable, but I suspect that this is true of quite a few women. Just as the foreskin comes into its own when men move into middle age, it could also be that women value the foreskin more as their lubrication thins after menopause. If circumcision randomly damages the ability of women over 50 to enjoy sex, then we may one day have a lot of angry yentas on our hands.
Bris is on a collision course with Jewish feminism (Andrea Dworkin did not like it, and Phyllis Chessler’s daughter has published a strongly intactivist essay). With Jewish sexual sophistication (Freud did not circumcise his sons). With Jewish nonviolence (see the writings of Alice Miller) and concern for animals (Peter Singer). With the general Jewish commitment to progressive and humane values. But what may really be going on is that intactivism’s time has come, and thoughtful Jews are responding to that fact like thoughtful gentiles. And a large majority of self-identified Jews are NOT Torah literalists. In fact, taking scripture very literally is seen in Jewish circles as weird Christian fundamentalism.
George Wald, the New York Jew who went on to win the Nobel Prize in medicine, was deeply puzzled by the passion of gentile mothers to circumcise their boys. Why did they do this? Because when a boy has foreskin, his mother will have to inspect his penis and talk about retraction and cleanliness. She may even have to handle it. All this has a high ick factor, is beneath her dignity as an adult woman. To raise an intact son is to be reminded, each time one changes its diaper or gives it a bath, that the son has sexual equipment that his father, grandfathers, and uncles all lack.
The foreskin doesn’t look like much, especially when the penis is erect. But the foreskin is also the precise part of the male body that interacts with the vaginal wall during intercourse. This should give one serious pause. There is a possibility that circumcision materially alters, in some or even most cases, the mechanics of vaginal intercourse, in ways that are not to the woman’s advantage.
Here is great Jewish humour about what happens when a Nice Jewish Girl tries her hand at dating shaygetz, thereby having a Close Encounter of the Embarrassing Kind with a nonkosher Short Arm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs_WSUXPfOE
I hope I remain welcome at your table.
[...] – I actually don’t believe in circumcision! Check out my article all about it: http://girliegirlarmy.com/blog/20091020/to-circumcise-or-not-to-circumcise-that-is-the-question/ Thanks to the rest of you for your beautiful [...]
I don’t think anyone’s mentioned it yet, but the foreskin doesn’t only make sex better for the (intact) man, but for his partner, too. If American women didn’t have circumcision pushed on them as “normal”, there’d be a huge preference for the intact penis. I’m so glad my husband’s intact- I’d still love him if he was circumcised, but I’d feel bad for him, and there’s no WAY our sons would be cut.
I have serious doubts about studies showing a lowered risk for disease after circumcision, especially since a circumcised penis is more likely to get tears in the too-tight skin during sex, but even if they were correct, I’d rather teach my sons to be responsible and use condoms. Relying on circumcision to protect from disease can only lead to less frequent condom use, and therefore more disease and unwanted pregnancies.
As for looking like dad? If a grown man’s penis, circumcised or intact, looks like his 4-year old’s penis, he’s got bigger problems than what we’re talking about here…
I am looking for someone to do an expose’ on a custom. I am a nurse in newborn nursery. The pain that sweet tiny baby boys go through during a circumcision horrifies me. It is surgery without anesthesia. It is 10 minutes of pure hell. The pain is so horrendous that many babies go into shock immediately. They just stare and make gurgly noises. They are the lucky ones. The others remain perfectly aware of the pain that goes on and on. Their piercing screams haunt me.
In history, the earliest surgery was done without anesthesia. Just tie them down and do it quick. Some people were willing to have surgery once. But I’ve read that people refused to endure surgery a second time – even if it meant death. They knew how severe the pain was, and decided they would rather die than endure that pain a second time.
How can intelligent, educated people not realize that a scalpel causes a horrendous, sharp, excruciating pain that no human being should ever have to endure. Tell me how a custom can be so strong that it overpowers intelligence and common sense.
For example, the Chinese custom of “binding” young girls’ feet. The toes were forced down under the foot [ breaking bones, I believe ] and tightly bound forever. So the feet couldn’t grow. Forever small. Big feet were considered UGLY. No one would marry a girl with big feet. Can you imagine the pain? Americans are not under the influence of Chinese customs and from a distance, we are apalled! But in China, even after a law was passed against foot-binding, some parents would still do it – knowing that they were going to prison. That is how strong a custom can be. It can cloud judgement.
The pain of circumcision wouldn’t be quite as bad if the foreskin was fully developed at birth. But it is still adhered to the glans [ head of the penis ] and does not separate naturally for several years. Mother Nature may be slow, but it produces an exquisitely sensitive sexual organ.
The first step of a circumcision is to rip the adhered foreskin off the glans using a metal probe. But the two skins are still fused as one. And patches of skin are ripped off the glans in the process. I see the glans of these tiny penises with skin missing and the tissue exposed every day. The pain is supposed to be comparable to having a metal probe forced under your fingernail and ripping it back and forth until the fingernail comes off. Imagine the pain! It is now recommended that a pain block be used. But it is not a law. So only a few babies get it.
So why do we do it? Because it is what we are used to. A custom. Explain that to a baby that is enduring a pain that no human being should ever have to endure!
There are many other reasons not to circumcise. It is removing the best skin of the penis. The foreskin contains approx. 20,000 specialized nerves that enhance sexual pleasure. The skin remaining is crude and has only a fraction of the sensation. The foreskin is NOT extra skin. It is there so that the penis can get longer during an erection. It is designed to unfold and stretch out, allowing the penis to grow. In the process, the foreskin is pulled off the glans. The glans is then uncovered and now the intact penis looks the same as a circumcised penis. They end up looking the same during an erection. But the intact penis is larger and has more sensation.
Over the years, doctors have invented excuses for circumcision and the public latches onto them. These excuses are false and misleading. There is no reason good enough to inflict such sharp, excruciating pain on someone you love. To forever decrease his sexual pleasure. To amputate the best, most sensitive part of his penis. To violate his human rights.
As I watch parents hug and kiss their new babies. Then insist that their babies endure a pain that is comparable to a fingernail being ripped off with a metal probe. And then a scalpel cuts – with no anesthesia. I want to scream, “Do you love your baby, or hate him?”
There are many organizations that would help you with an expose’. They are easy to find on the internet. Please help! Babies are weak. This custom is strong.